OPINION
There I Was...#65
Published on August 27, 2008 By Big Fat Daddy In Misc

I am stuck in an animal groove this week. I had so much fun (and drifted so far astray!) with the last one I thought I would do the other angle on the same thing. I will tell you about James, one of my best friends and someone who worked for me. I know. Not a good idea, but we were the same age, our wives were great friends...and we liked each other. To the best of my knowledge, our friendship never got in the way of work.

Anyway, the story is about Flo (FloraDora von Haus Schutting), a beautiful female shepherd that was out of the same kennel as Golf. She was such a beautiful puppy, a little darker in her markings than Golf and a little smaller when full grown. But Flo was the most obedient dog you ever saw. That said, I will now tell you how she got that way and what it cost to have her so obedient.

James was so in love with Golf that as soon as he could afford it, we went shopping for a good dog. He wanted one from the same lines as Golf. We found Flo with the help of the kennel meister that sold me Golf. James knew about the bennies that went with the papers from the Verein fur die Deutsche Schaferhund (Germany has several kennel clubs, each breed has its own. The Club for the German Shepherd Dog issued papers, varying colors depending on the quality of the dog and its training. Red was top dog papers, white was puppy papers). The most important bennie was access to the professional trainers and workplaces where the dogs are trained. James wanted to get started right away. The Pro told him she was way too young. Leash training and basic obedience between three and four months...more involved training later. Attack training was not even started until the dogs were close to a year old. James was impatient. He pulled out his Kansas farm hand stubborness and started training Flo on his own.

He wanted me to help train her. After the first session, I told him I could not have a hand in his methods. His answer to any minor disobedience on the dogs part earned the dog a beating. I was really disappointed in James, he insisted he had trained hunting dogs, farm dogs and all kinds of dogs this way and after a little roughness at first, they learned not to make mistakes. I had my doubts, not only about his training techniques but also about the future of our relationship. It was hard for me to reconcile this side of James to the rest of him...a warm, loyal, husband, and friend. Deeply committed to family and without measure, the best soldier and driver in my platoon. He assured me it was just until she learned who was in charge and what if felt like to challenge that.

As Flo grew and matured, she was exactly what James said she would be. Eagerly obedient totally fearful if she made a mistake. After she was fully grown, I never saw him hit her. But there was something else I noticed. Flo was not a happy dog. How can you define that. I can only say that she was never playful, never tried to take part in family activites, I never saw her chase a ball, nothing but an uninterupted focus on James and his every move.

A few years after James left the Army, he and his family came down to Texas to visit us. We had a great time together. We went down to the spillway in Lampasas and went skinnydipping and playing in the water. At one point, James sicced Flo on me. I was about twenty yards behind the spillway, staying afloat in the deepest part of the pool, maybe ten or twelve feet deep. I had made a comment that Flo knew me better than anyone else and wouldn't attack me. She was on the shore and when he aimed a finger at me and told her to get me, she dove and came at me with no hesitation at all. I timed he dog paddle pretty well and when she was within range, I grabbed her lead paw and pulled her under water. That would be enough to slow down the most determined dog, I thought. She came up sputtering and sneezing and coming on with evil intent...the inital attack was just business...cause boss said to. Now it was personal. I dunked her a couple more times but was beginning to get a little concerned, she just wouldn't quit. I told James, who was laughing on the spillway, to call her out before I had to drown her. He did and she immediately turned off the crazy and even allowed me to pet her up a little.

I loved Flo. She was a beautiful Shepherd and she like me more than any one else outside her immediate family. I don't mean she was a wicked evil dog. She had a sweet nature. And there is no debate that she was obedient. But there was an emptiness in Flo that was hard to explain. When we worked the dogs together, Golf always watched me with eager eyes, barely able to contain himself. When at "Heel", he would be looking up at me for the next move, he was so anxious to please. He had a great smile and a big old head he kept butting me with. Flo always watched James, too. But her demeanor was totally different. She had anxiety instead of anxiousness. She watched in mortal fear of doing something wrong or missing a cue or just any infraction. And YES, they are that smart.

I have seen some of the MWDs and Police dogs on TV and at work places and they are amazing in what they can do. I don't know what kind of relationship they have with their handlers out of the public eye. I don't know much about their training techniques. I know Darrell, a former Air Force dog handler and I have a buddy on the Teller County Sheriff's force who is a police dog handler. I ask them about the job at times and they have funny tales and such. But I don't know how they train.

On the other hand. I am very familiar with the way the Germans train Schutzhunds and what the dogs have to learn to move up the chain. They "gentle" the dogs into obedience and they are patient. They use the same methods a mommy dog would use to discipline a wayward dog...like I said before, grabbing the dog by the scruff of the neck and shaking vigorously will reduce the dog to a quivering, repentant soul ready to redeem himself. And the result is a dog that becomes a member of the family, a thinking, reasoning, protector who on one hand can be gentle with children and on the other hand rip the arms off of an intruder.

What is the point? I don't know. Sometimes I think the point is not the dogs, but the owners. James was my best friend when I discovered his attitude about training animals. I think if I had known that about him first, I would never have had anything to do with him. And sometimes I feel kind of sad that I didn't have the courage at the time to be more assertive on the issue (his behaviour was borderline chargeable under the UCMJ). And writing this now feels kind of disloyal to our friendship, even though I haven't talked to James in over thirty years. Any way...I believe kindness builds better dogs.


Comments
on Aug 27, 2008

I dont really know how to train a dog.  I know my own shepherd was never formally trained, yet was the best protector of my children I have ever seen.

I dont think I want to try to train a dog the way James did.  I prefer a loving dog, not a fearful one.

on Aug 27, 2008

I''m no expert on that sort of thing...or any other thing, for that matter.  But I can tell you why he went after you.  The bone.  I think that if you had found a way to distract him or offered him some sort of egress without confrontation, he may have taken his bone and slunk off to a different corner.  Second attack it was a toy...same scenario...Third time he came at you because he knew he could...two previous attacks proved it.  That is why I am a huge proponent of training dogs, especially big dogs, because once the discipline is instilled, they are less likely to free-lance.  When old Bear took after me, he had his nose full of Chee-chee in heat.  I couldn't really blame him, but I couldn't let him draw blood and not see a consequence.  I threw a blanket over him then picked him up like a suitcase and carried him outside.  I thumped him a time or two while he was covered.  Outside I took the blanket off and let the breezes clear his nose out.  After that, any time I threatened a blanket party, he cowed. 

I don't believe that dogs necessarily will attack their owners, but knowing what kinds of things violate their space and having a plan to avoid situations where the dog feels cornered or threatened will go a long way to avoiding it.  As "German-Oriented" as I am in training techniques, I believe a swat to a pup's butt is good practice.  When they are older, a pop on the nose gets their attention.  And if you can get ahold of the scruff of their neck, shaking the hell out of them will amaze you with its result.  But this is all opinion, Whipper.  Should you try any of this and wind up in surgery again...I ain't paying no damages! 

I'm sorry.  I had to laugh.  Jeff Foxworthy's story about getting a nipple bitten off by a beaver just jumped into my pea brain.

on Aug 27, 2008

I just read that over and realized I didn't really answer your question.  Once they have attacked, what can you do?  One opinion is to slap them until they cry like a baby...apparently you did that he came at you again.  You could argue that the method worked for ten years...You just waited too long for the booster shot.  Or you could be understanding and hope that love conquers all.  Or you could shoot him.  I didn't shoot Bear, even when he got Boogie on the face.  Probably should have, though.  I know...they are a part of the family, they are your kids, you are willing to forgive and...etc etc.  There is a difference between a pet who does a random attack and a vicious dog who attacks anyone...shoot the latter for sure.  The former?  I don't know.  I do believe they need a lasting impression that it is not a good idea to be taking a taste of mom...or dad.  And again, professional training makes a difference.  Golf would have thrown himself off a cliff before he harmed anyone in our family. ..or maybe he just never had one of those days...who knows.  I still haven't answered your question, huh!  I just don't have any good answers. 

on Aug 28, 2008

I dont think I want to try to train a dog the way James did. I prefer a loving dog, not a fearful one.

I'm with you Doc.  Dogs are cool people, who wants a robot?

LW:  Well, I for one hope you stay off the menu for a good long while.

on Aug 28, 2008

You should have shot James.

 

...and that's all I have to say about that.

on Aug 28, 2008

I think you might be too hard on James.  You said he grew up on a farm right?

Well in my experience, people who live on farms and deal with animals daily, tend to look at animals more as well, animals, and not so much "members" of the family.

It's a message lots of farm kids learn early.  Probably one of their first.  Don't get too close to the cows, don't befriend the sheep, don't get close...these are ANIMALS who provide food and materials and occasionally entertainment for humans.  We will feed them.  We will water them.  We will butcher them, or sent them to be butchered.

That kind of thing.

My cousin had a Chow.  She was a really happy dog, but I can tell you he occasionally beat her.  When his newborn son just came home from the hospital, he was on a blanket in the floor sleeping.  Molly, the chow, ran and jumped over him instead of going around.

Before she even hit the floor, my cousin yanked her out of the air and gave her a beating.

She never ever did anything another dog would consider dominant behavior toward the baby again.  In fact, until she died last year they were inseparable for 7 years.

He didn't beat her often, but I know of two times when he gave her a good 4-5 punches and manhandling.

on Aug 28, 2008

You should have shot James.

Glad to see you are still reading me...and I can always count on you to give a succinct and insightful response.

 

on Aug 28, 2008

Well in my experience, people who live on farms and deal with animals daily, tend to look at animals more as well, animals, and not so much "members" of the family

I know that is true, and part of the reason we remained friends, that farmer mentality showed up in more ways than animal relations (that doesn't sound good!).  It was still hard to deal with for me.  For Flo, too.

on Aug 28, 2008

I guess I never received the memo stating that cruelty and/or inhumane treatment or beating of animals was excused if you lived on a farm.  Do you think maybe it was sent along with the same memo stating that if someone lived in a prison or a concentration camp or had been to war, one is allowed to be cruel and or inhumane to other human beings??

 

Sorry, I guess I didn’t receive either of those memos.  Actually, you know what, I’m not sorry.  I would have disregarded the memos even if I had been on the mailing list.  In my world, no matter the circumstance, it is NEVER okay to be cruel or inhumane to or beat  any creature, human or otherwise.

I promise to bite my tongue (even though it's already bleeding) now.

on Aug 28, 2008

Your self-righteousness is very off putting.

I guess I never received the memo stating that cruelty and/or inhumane treatment or beating of animals was excused if you lived on a farm.

No one said it was "excused."  And you obviously missed a lot more than memos if you so blithely equate animal suffering and human suffering in the same breath.

In my world, no matter the circumstance, it is NEVER okay to be cruel or inhumane to or beat any creature, human or otherwise.

Not everyone has that luxury.  Some people actually kill the animals they eat, and some people *gasp* even raise animals to be slaughtered so other people can maintain their "animal and humans are equal" worlds.  Farmers wouldn't be doing their kids any favors by teaching them animals shouldn't be killed, penned, used for food. 

Guess it all boils down to the definition of inhumane.

If a dog, or any animal, comes after me or mine.  I am going to hurt that animal with whatever means is at my disposal, up to and including beating them.

So in MY world, under no circumstance, do I ever intentionally allow an animal to threaten the safety of people in my care.

See?  Off putting.

 

on Aug 29, 2008

Heh, as much as I loved Bub, I guess I should have 'turned the other nipple' hmm? Or layed down and offered him my throat, which is what he was really after...

Yeah in some people's "world" that might be the HUMANE thing to do.

I don't advocate beating dogs for training, but the truth is I don't know much about them.  I saw a dog beaten once and it made me sick.

At the same time, I won't make sweeping judgements about people and how they train or don't train because I've never done it.

 

on Aug 29, 2008

This subject certainly draws out emotion in the participants.  I never intended to do any more than contrast the results of two very different methods of training.  I am against cruelty and abuse of animals, human or otherwise.  I am not against doing them harm when they are after my nipples or the nipples of others...to me that is just necessary.  What I feel is not necessary is wailing on a dumb animal for amusement or supposed training.  There may be legitimate reasons to use corporal punishment on  a dog, there is even a bamboo stick that is manufactured for professionals to use in puppy training.  It has two wide slits in it so when you pop the pup with it, it makes a loud clacking sound.  The affect is to scare more than hurt the dog.  It works great in teaching basic obedience to younger dogs, especially bigger breeds.  Newspapers work just as well.  But neither one is applied with great force and never meant to be a tool of vengeance used in anger. 

Curly and I have talked about this off-line, we agree that with animals or with people,  leading from a position of respect is always better than from a position of fearing.  Knowing her, I believe she would take harm to herself before harming an animal.  I kinda draw the line at giving up my nipples...but that is what makes life interesting.

I would beat a dog to death before allowing it to attack one of my kids or grandkids...but I don't beat dogs to teach them who is boss.  I have a couple of interesting mutts right now, mix of black lab, border collie with just a toe-shading of blue healer thrown in.  They were such cute little balls of fur at 6 weeks.  At 6 years they are each in the 70 lb range and very energetic.  They are great with kids, a little too enthusiastic at times, and they are very obedient.  They have never been beaten, they have a healthy respect of Big Fat Daddy's newspaper, tho.  If there is ever any doubt about what is and isn't appropriate behaviour for dogs in Daddy's house, the newspaper settles peacefully. 

Okay, now you have inspired me to tell you another tale about the relationship between people and their animals.

Thanks all for your participation...feel free to continue...

on Aug 30, 2008

The second time, he had hold of my right forearm, had sank his teeth in to the BONE,

There were a couple of occasions when I put the leather sleeve on just for poops and grins...it wasn't funny.  The bite pressure generated by a dog is unbelievable and they can hold on for a WHILE !  Bulldogs are trained to bite down on a limb then start working their way to the throat...sort of a chewing motion...and I have heard of cases where they had to cut the jaw muscles AFTER the bulldog was dead to get it off an arm...true?  Believable in any case.

So all in all, I am glad you won your battles with the pups, it is fun to have you around.

on Aug 31, 2008

First of all, I don't recommend you letting the dogs get into a real physical fight.  They are bigger than you and you could wind up in a big mess.  Sometimes dogs with "history" will finally blow and will fight to the death...taking a chunk out of anyone who gets in the way. 

I was going to suggest you separate them completely for treat time, you came to that yourself before I got to the end of the comment.  Maybe different rooms?  As for the howling, we don't allow it here.  The boys start up everytime a siren goes off (we live 100 yards from a fire station, good for insurance, not good for sleep).  I put the rolled up magazine on the problem when they were pups and now all it takes is a reminder that howling is not allowed and they stop.  Frankie may be too old for that to be a good remedy, but if you can teach him to stop howling on command, you will have gone a long way towards establishing the pecking order you want. 

From what you say here, sounds like Frankie may  be realizing that Ceasar has come into his own adulthood and is trying to maintain dominanc and might be a little paranoid about it.  Just an egghead guess.

How do you think Frankie would respond to a loud blast on a police whistle?  Not just for payback, hehe, but it could trigger a stop response if he gets back louder than he is giving.  The magazine to the nose (not a blast, just a pop) would be a surprise to an adult dog who hadn't experienced it before, but keep a club handy, the response might be other than what you want.  These are just some ideas that came up while I was reading your stuff here.  I will make a point to discuss it with Darrell the All Knowing and see if he has any ideas for ya.  Just crossed my mind that a good old fashioned petting party when the howling starts might slow it down...but it might also teach him to howl when he wants to get some lovin'.  

Dogs who live together usually work out the pecking order without too much interferance from the humans...sometimes we don't like the way it works out, but whachgonnado?